Have just seen the new M Audio Delta advert in the latest SOS. Sorry for what follows, and yes I am feeling a little tired and emotional after England v Brazil, but I've just about had it with Midiman..
For those that haven't seen it:
Quote: " 'Flexibility' of matching the right I/O configuration to your needs. 'Compatibility' with any computer, operating system, or music applications. 'Simplicity' of installation and operation. 'Expandability' to grow with your needs. 'Dependability' under any circumstances. The Delta series of digital audio cards is so popular because we've answered our customers' needs to the letter - Unequalled driver support "
I've been battling on using 2 x Delta 1010s for the last couple of years, and I've got to say that this is absolute tosh of the highest order. The Delta hardware itself is great, but their driver support has been woeful. When problems have arisen, they've just buried their heads in the sand and pretended like it isn't there, until it seems someone/something pushes their hand and forces them to act. I had to tell them that a previous driver only allowed use of 12 out of 16 outputs...it was 'news' to them apparently... The latest example for me is attempting to use my 2x1010s under Windows XP Pro. In short, you can't. The outputted sound corrupts utterly after a couple of minutes of use. I first reported the problem to both Midiman's UK & US Tech departments at the end of last year. I understand the teething problems that arise from moving to the support of new OSes, but I can't understand the blatant disregard for a user's efforts in troubleshooting the problem. I won't go into boring technicalities, but after a couple of different motherboards/chipsets, numerous permutations of XP installs and BIOS settings, physically swapping 1 card out for another ('cos Midiman claimed there "wasn't a problem") I finally managed to narrow the problem down to one version of a sys file that was included in their driver. They still denied there was a problem, just going over and over the most basic of stuff.. Christ, I don't need to be told 100 times what a frigging IRQ is!! It really seemed like I was talking at a completely different level to their Tech guys - they basically didn't have a clue. This whole circus has rolled on and on - I've repeatedly hassled them via phone and email to UK and US during the last 6 and a bit months, without them admitting to any problem. It came to a head a couple of weeks ago when I was on the phone to Midiman US 'again', and spoke to a new guy there. Brightly he said that a friend of his had just recieved a second 1010 and had experienced exactly the same problem. It seemed that they had to wait to get first-hand-experience of it through a mate... they hadn't even be bothered to test it for themselves! Called the UK Tech, told them there was an issue and was informed "There is no issue. I'm using 2 1010s under XP at 1.5ms blah blah blah with no problems whatsoever". When pressed he admitted that he'd only just built his PC, and only used it for less than a minute! Jesus... Got through to his supervisor, who, must have heard from the U.S. because all of a sudden my problem was recognized, taken on board and confirmed as an issue! 6 MONTHS LATER THAN WHEN I FIRST TOLD THEM ABOUT IT! AFTER TELLING THEM OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER ABOUT IT AD NAUSEAM! The supervisor then promised me a fixed driver within 7-10 days. Its now over 2 1/2 weeks later, nothing's happened, and now the guy's decided that he can't give 'any' sort of date as to whether this will get fixed.
I'm sure this is just going to come across as a dumb rant, but I feel genuinely p****d off about them atm. They're trying to market these products as professional tools. And to see those oh-so-seductive-yet-kinda-empty marketing slogans staring up at me from the printed page has just pushed me over the edge.
WHY OH WHY OH WHY OH WHY DIDN'T I GO WITH RME????? Now that 'is' a company that has fantastic rapport/support with its customers, along with great driver support.
P.S: If anyone wants to buy 2 Delta 1010s please leave a message......
This seriously sucks - too many companies are lackadaisical when it comes to drivers and support - it seems like the moment they've sold a product, they don't really care whether it's got good drivers or works with different systems. (Creative, for example!) Buyer beware.
From: Moonshine Castle
Registered: June 09, 2002 Posts: 155
posted
The problem these days seems to be that companies just don't care.I've had no response from emails, phone calls, you name it (from many companies in the last year.)I've become too disheartened by anything involving music sales.
We all get sucked in to these flashy ads but in reality they just don't care.Customer service people are rude, patronising and generally un- helpful.Most of the time they don't have a clue as to what you are asking.(You need to rely on internet forums for answers.Thank god for the people who contribute to them!) Midiman should address this, but they don't care!Emagic should address it but they don,t care! Etc.etc. Too many to list. This is the world we live in.....
Who's to blame ? Anyone that doesn't give a shit . I'm going to buy an ice cream
The whole problem with some companies is that they have the mindset that if you don't like it, there's always someone behind you waiting. It's a seller's market.
Opcode was the same way (don't know how they are now that someone else took over. They deserved it). I bought 2 128x MIDI interfaces because they can network together on the PC. The help file, box, and advertising all say they can. They never could. I even got a response from them saying that it doesn't work. And it never did get fixed. So I have two of those POS's in my closet gathering dust. But at least I still have my manual that says it works!
From: Bournemouth, Dorset
Registered: July 27, 2001 Posts: 1108
posted
Here we go..... again
I'd just like to add to Graham's tale; I've got a similar setup (XP and 2x1010s), and I also have this problem. In addition, I also told them about the "12 of 16" issue, and they said to me "that's news" - it clearly wasn't when either Graham or I told them, as both of us had the same problem. And now the XP issue; I was also told "that's news to us", etc,etc. and then now they finally admit that it's their problem! I've done the same as Graham - hardware swaps, whatever. Now I finally find out it's not me or my system (I didn't think so).
I _never_ waste my time phoning "tech support" - these guys get crap money, and the reason for that is because they don't know anything. I do this for a living, and I'm pretty good at it. What's more I know PCs pretty much inside out, and I don't believe hype and BS; So when I get an issue like this I spend time to check everything out _before_ writing to the manufacturer, and when I write I do so in a clear manner with every detail possible recorded. And I expect to get at least a reply saying that they're looking into it. Now Midiman used to be good (I had a Winman 2x2 when Windows 95 first came out, and had a problem, and they mailed a new driver to me within a week), but now as "The micro$oft of audio cards" (god help us) they have become increasingly interested in marketing, hyperbole and other such middle-management toss. I've just had another reply today to an e-mail I sent this morning, and it just says (essentially) "whenever it gets done, it gets done" - what kind of attitude is that? They've known about this problem for several months now, and in addition they _should_ have been on the case from day 1. It's not as if Windows XP is exactly a 'niche' OS is it? And using 2 1010s is hardly out on a limb either.
Graham: Do you want to sell me your 1010s? Then I could have four of them, and imagine what kind of bugs I'd find then!
Finally, Midiman's support may be arse, but compared to Steinberg's, it's top-notch. Steinberg and Arbiter are the biggest bunch of crooks out there. And if they don't like that, then they can feel free to fix my Midex8's MIDI drift and my Houston's numerous issues. Yeah, baby, bring on those lawyers!
Eek! I have a 1010 and would consider getting another. As I run a Mac, it would be interesting if this is an issue on that platform. Perhaps, Graham, you could post on the Mac forum. If it is an issue, then Midiman sucks twice . . .,
From: Bournemouth, Dorset
Registered: July 27, 2001 Posts: 1108
posted
How long should I wait
Richard: I refrained from replying to your original rather clumsy "AMD issue" line (really reminiscent of support-monkey buck-passing), but the 'XP/9x' routine is _way_ out of line; firstly if you've upgraded to Cubase SX, then you _have_ to use XP, secondly, XP is infinitely more stable and predictable than 9x, and finally (and I feel most crucially), XP has been available to developers for OVER A YEAR! It's hardly out of the question for them to have set up a PC running XP and two 1010s, and yet that's exactly what they haven't done. And as 9x is dead, trumpeting 'compatibility with all OSs' is misleading at best.
Pro2020: Are you using more than one 1010? The problem doesn't happen with just the one; it also only happens when using ASIO; if you route through the OS it's just fine. And in that respect the drivers are great - if they worked with 2 (or up to 4 as they boast) 1010s and XP, then there would be no problem - in every other respect there's no issues for me, anyway.
From: Tring (Herts) or Derby depending how the mood takes me
Registered: December 12, 2000 Posts: 1857
posted
-- Richard: I refrained from replying to your original rather clumsy "AMD issue" line (really reminiscent of support-monkey buck-passing), but the 'XP/9x' routine is _way_ out of line; --
I was just analysing the situation from the companies point of view - M-Audio have a certain amount of resources with which to develop hardware/drivers etc, if the majority of people that buy/are likely to buy this hardware use Windows 98 with a single 1010 then this support has to take priority. The use of AMD plaforms is in a minority in the Music sector - perhaps they don't even have any AMD systems to test on?
I was actually trying to get a little closer to the cause of the problem - does it only affect AMD platforms, or Intel too? It's already been narrowed down to XP, is it only ASIO that doesn't work? What are the details of the affected systems - any commonalities apart from Windows XP and two 1010's?
-- firstly if you've upgraded to Cubase SX, then you _have_ to use XP, --
True, but then Cubase SX is relativly new to market, and the music community in particular is slow to adopt new platforms.
-- secondly, XP is infinitely more stable and predictable than 9x, --
I agree - I use it myself with a single Delta 1010.
-- and finally (and I feel most crucially), XP has been available to developers for OVER A YEAR! It's hardly out of the question for them to have set up a PC running XP and two 1010s, and yet that's exactly what they haven't done. And as 9x is dead, trumpeting 'compatibility with all OSs' is misleading at best. --
How do you know they haven't tried 2x1010 on XP? How long does it take to test a wide enough cross-section of systems so that it works on virtually everybodys. Hence the AMD question - What would you say the percentage of people using an Intel platform vs AMD is? Hence the priority would be to get it working on an Intel platform first. Then you have to consider that the Delta 1010 isn't the only product they make. Still sound easy?
I'm not saying that the attitude of the customer service at M-Audio have treated you properly, but there are more factors at play here.
Dr. Miggins - I've heard reports that using the latest driver Macs currently won't work with more than one 1010 either, but as I don't have first-hand experience of this I would not want to claim it as gospel. Just go ahead and do some Mac beta-testing for Midimnan!
Richard, regardless of your feelings about the Intel vs AMD debate, (FWIW - I've now heard from people on both sides of the Intel/AMD camps that have exactly the same problem (2 or more 1010s under XP won't work), and also that the driver writer actually develops them on an Asus A7V AMD platform) I'd like to draw your attention again to what Midiman are saying:
Quote: " 'Flexibility' of matching the right I/O configuration to your needs. 'Compatibility' with *any* computer, operating system, or music applications. 'Simplicity' of installation and operation. 'Expandability' to grow with your needs. 'Dependability' under *any* circumstances. The Delta series of digital audio cards is so popular because we've answered our customers' needs *to the letter* - *Unequalled driver support* "
Forgetting the fact for a moment that Intel users seem to be having the same problem, does this sound to you like "Intel support current. AMD to follow"??? Of course it doesn't! Their hyperbole is simply a deceptive statement of future intent - its where they'd *like* to be, and as such its fine. Its a great and admirable goal for any company to set itself such high standards. What an inspiring internal memo it could make!! But the reality of this for Midiman it is a long, long way off, and therefore my problem is that they are falsely trying to flog their products. The 1010s are marketed as being "expandable" and "flexible". This has been patently untrue for the last 6 or so months under XP. Richard, for you to say that they are "at the forefront of driver development" beggars belief!! They merely claim support for standards like EASI and GSIF before actually writing usable drivers for same. It was the same under 98, and it looks like being the same under 2K/XP too. Again, its just marketing. Hell, it all *looks* impressive right?! :-P And lastly although I slightly resent doing their Beta-testing for them, I don't mind if something actually happens when bugs are found. But I *massively* resent it if it is ignored! They DID NOT test multiple 1010s under XP (even after my constant hassling), otherwise they would have come across this problem earlier. This whole thing could be so much easier for Midiman if they just bothered to listen to some of their users who are attempting to be productive with their tools in the field.
As a final thing - just look at how Matthias et al have developed RME. That is a company that works fantastically well with its clients, including compatibility tables, forums, etc etc. Midiman, in comparison, are an absolute joke.
P.s: Rich, for clarity's sake: the problem occurs using either EASI or ASIO drivers with 2 or more 1010s under XP, using either AMD or Intel. The problem started with v26 driver and continues with the v27. The v25 driver doesn't have this particular problem - a combination of files from the v25 and v27 is currntly the best solution I can come up with - but the v25 has other problems of its own.
From: Essex Fells, NJ now in Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: May 07, 2002 Posts: 4557
posted
Graham...
Don't bother, if Rich says it's an AMD issue then you're not gonna convince him otherwise.
I'm actually interested in that problem, I've got two RME cards (Digi 96/8 PAD and ADAT) alongside an Audiophile and no problems, the RME's are known to be good busmaster cards whereas the audiophile (At least the drivers) seem to have issues with other busmastering cards in the same PCI bus, I was going to switch from the Audiophile to a 1010, but looking at this problem (I use Win2K BTW) I think I'm gonna watch this topic and see what the response is.
This situation is terrible i feel your pain. So many dealers and companies have been getting away with too much.
Im having problems with the audiophile recording making what sounds like a stuck record noise but maudio have not responded for two weeks. Im using Amd Athlon. Ive become a bloody computer technision thanx to trying to make music on a pc, im really disheartened and now looking for a dedicated hardware recording solution leaving the computer for midi.
From: Tring (Herts) or Derby depending how the mood takes me
Registered: December 12, 2000 Posts: 1857
posted
-- Richard, regardless of your feelings about the Intel vs AMD debate, --
I have a several AMD machines in addition to my main PC, which I just happen to have upgraded to Intel from an Athlon XP1800+. I did not intent to spark an Intel vs AMD debate, I was just asking a simple question, and I got jumped on.
-- (FWIW - I've now heard from people on both sides of the Intel/AMD camps that have exactly the same problem (2 or more 1010s under XP won't work), --
Right, this is exactly what I wanted to know - were ther instances of this occuring on different platforms.
-- Richard, for you to say that they are "at the forefront of driver development" beggars belief!! --
I disagree - they have regular driver updates. When I was using my 1010 in an AMD based system I had a couple of issues which I spoke to M-Audio about and they were looked into and resolved in a couple of weeks. Luckily, it would seem, I've never tried two cards.
From: Bournemouth, Dorset
Registered: July 27, 2001 Posts: 1108
posted
Just to clear things up...
Richard:
quote:. . if the majority of people that buy/are likely to buy this hardware use Windows 98 with a single 1010 then this support has to take priority. The use of AMD plaforms is in a minority in the Music sector - perhaps they don't even have any AMD systems to test on?
Firstly, the 98 drivers haven't been updated for some time; they worked fine (once the 12/16 thing was sorted out), so no need for work there. Secondly, AMD systems can't any longer be thought of as 'minority' - they represent a large amount of users, as testified by the number of people who have problems. And if they can't be arsed to spend £400 or so on getting an AMD system together, then what does _that_ say about them. As it turns out, they do things on AMD....
As far as getting close to the problem is concerned, I'd reported it on my system, and that's all-intel (CPU & Chipset), and it worked fine in 98 on the same hardware, so that's a fairly major clue. I'd provided all this information to Midiman several times via e-mail (both to UK and US), and nothing happened. THat's what really annoys me, just like graham. Errors in software are almost unavoidable, but it's the company's attitude to them that's unacceptable.
quote:How do you know they haven't tried 2x1010 on XP? How long does it take to test a wide enough cross-section of systems so that it works on virtually everybodys. Hence the AMD question - What would you say the percentage of people using an Intel platform vs AMD is? Hence the priority would be to get it working on an Intel platform first. Then you have to consider that the Delta 1010 isn't the only product they make. Still sound easy?
I _know_ that they hadn't tested 2x1010s on XP because the problem happens to _everyone_ (that I've been in contact with) who has used such a setup for several minutes - regardless of hardware, and Graham told me that Richard at MMUK hadn't tested his new system for more than a couple of minutes - read Graham's first post again, and you'll see the whole story.
And if their priority is to get things "working on Intel", then why have I been waiting nearly six months without any improvement? I think I know - they've spent more time developing "features" such as 'bass management' and surround, rather than getting rid of bugs. I'm not being unrealistic here; I know M-audio are a small company, and there's probably only one or two guys who do the drivers, but such a repeatable issue should be quickly investigated and sorted out; things such as one-sample clicks every ten minutes are a total nightmare to find, but this one is really easy to get happening, and I'm sure it can't be that hard to find, especially as the .25 driver didn't have this problem, but the .26 one did. And as for the Delta 1010 not being the only product they make, that's true, but I believe that the same driver set works for about six products of theirs, so that narrows the field.
And if they're really that stretched, then
(a) spend some of the advertising budget on a good driver coder
or
(b) spend some of the profits on a good driver coder.
Makes sense to me, but maybe that's why I work for myself rather than for some corporate entity.... ;-)
Hi Rich, I certainly don't want this to get into an Intel/AMD debate either. Its irrelevant as far as this issue goes...
The experience you've had (quote): "When I was using my 1010 in an AMD based system I had a couple of issues which I spoke to M-Audio about and they were looked into and resolved in a couple of weeks. ", sounds great, but is almost unique to you! I've been a contributor at the Delta 1010 forum (http://pub10.ezboard.com/bdelta1010forum) for the last couple of years - have you ever been there? If you look back through the archives you'll see how much trouble driver-problems have caused ever since the 1010 was released. It got so bad that a few people actually switched to using Hoontech's DSP24 driver to get the features/bug fixes they needed (The DSP24 uses the same chip as the 1010). Its not some utopian-ideal to have good driver writers. If Hoontech can do it, then Midiman can also.
From: wistow, cambs uk
Registered: December 11, 2000 Posts: 2881
posted
Damn!
Every time I start to look at my nice shiny pc and get tempted to dump the Amiga/D90 system I have been using for years, I read a thread like this one! Apparently it now looks like things in the Mac camp are no more rosy either.
I feel really sorry for you guys having invested all the time money and BST in pc recording but maybe it is time to pull the plug and go back to hardware? About the only computer based recording systems you never seem to SEE ANYONE BITCH ABOUT ARE (oops!) the professional ones that have been around a while like SADIE etc....
Maybe there is a lesson there for all of us.
P.S. This is not meant as a piss take, merely a sad observation on what a rip off the computer music scene really is.
Try selling systems this crap to the video guys and see how far you would get!
We need the audio equivalent of a video toaster on pc/mac!
Ivan - I've had fantastic professional feedback about RME. They really seem to have the right attitude to all this, coupled with great products. Personally I'm hoping to jump from Midiman to using 2 x Hammerfall DSP/Multifaces.
From: Tring (Herts) or Derby depending how the mood takes me
Registered: December 12, 2000 Posts: 1857
posted
I guess I'm alone then in having a good experience with M-Audio, shame really as I'd always been quite fond of them, and have been aspiring to a 2nd 1010. Maybe I'm gonna have to look elsewhere when I get some money together.
djaychela - heh, well he's called John and he's Scottish, so go figure :-)
Rich - this just underlines the stupidity of it all. Surely it would make good business sense for it to be a priority for more than one card to work at once? (esp. if its heavily touted as a feature). I mean, selling more than one card to any one person has got to make sense financially right?
From: Tring (Herts) or Derby depending how the mood takes me
Registered: December 12, 2000 Posts: 1857
posted
Well if it works it makes perfect sense - you sell twice as much while effectivly having to spend half as much on support because there is only one customer, not two.
I know of many 1010 owners who would be looking to add a second, and this issue will no doubt cause a lot of problems if it's not solved.
From: tel aviv, israel
Registered: June 03, 2002 Posts: 10
posted
thinking of getting the 1010.... is it the right move?
please pardon my ignorance. but what exactly does a second 1010 give you? at what point will i need a second card? the reason i'm asking is, that i'm thinking of getting a delta 1010 and would like to know it's pros and cons. i'm really just starting off with the whole computer-music-scene, which might explain why i would ask. all the talk of midiman's reluctance to solve problems and update their drivers starts to worry me. am i making the right move?
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